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Okay, so the review focus on, um, activity, which

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had a predominantly non-academic feel to it.

3
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So this is, this is where, um, academics

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or researchers were engaging with those organizations

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outside academia.

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Um, and the reason we wanted to focus on this is partly

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because the research and development core that Concord

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that is encouraging this, uh, as well

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as giving 10 days professional development time in which,

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uh, researchers should be able to pursue career

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and professional development as suits them.

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Actually at the University of Sheffield,

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this has been written as 12 days, so it’s one day a month,

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which is very generous.

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Uh, again, but, but people aren’t making use of it.

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So we wanted to know why that was.

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Uh, we’re really interested also in the kind

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of wider policy support

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and conversations that are going on

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to encourage Intersectoral mobility.

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So some of the work that’s coming out

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of the National Council for Universities and business and,

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and government policy papers about trying to ensure

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that researchers are comfortable moving

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from the academic context into other contexts,

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and in recognition of the fact that actually,

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as we know from, from what little data there is,

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most postdocs will, who,

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or most of those who start a postdoc journey,

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will not stay long-term in academic research.

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Um, so, so this was a kind of what we were trying

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to understand and what, how these, these drivers were,

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were motivating our research.

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We focused on the three career development

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activity mechanisms, mechanisms that I mentioned before.

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So knowledge exchange, consultancy and secondments.

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We can argue about whether those are really non-academic

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engagement, but for the purposes of this review, we,

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we wanted to focus on something concrete, uh, so

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that researchers would, would, uh, be able to relate it

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to what’s actually on, on offer on the ground here.

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We got a little bit of funding through our research culture,

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so Research England funding port, uh,

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to employ a postdoc part-time to carry out this research.

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And that was really, I think, helpful in getting engagement

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with other postdocs.

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Uh, that person reviewed, uh, relevant policy documents,

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conducted two surveys.

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Uh, they’re very similar in terms of content,

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but obviously slightly different wording for postdocs

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and the PIs

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and line managers who, uh, engaged with, with those surveys.

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And also there were some one-to-one interviews carried out

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to kind of flesh out a bit more.

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Some of what came out of, uh, the survey findings

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very briefly, uh, we are quite pleased

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with the response we had.

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We got 147 postdocs, uh,

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of some shape or form responding.

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And that gives you a brief picture of, you know,

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the fact these were mostly PDs

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or research associates, uh, with, with a range

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of titles in, in Sheffield.

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But this is predominantly grade seven, uh, staff

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who may be on their first, second, potentially even third

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postdoc, um, with a few others, uh, thrown in.

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Most of our responses were full-time rather than part-time,

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but it was good to have that part-time

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representation as well.

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And we had a reasonably decent, um, spread, uh,

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across our faculties.

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The arts and humanities faculty is a very small faculty in

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terms of the numbers of researchers.

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Anyway, so this was fairly representative,

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although we, we didn’t go into to trying

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to break down into exact proportions.

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Um, in terms of the PIs

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or line managers, I’ve used typically PI here,

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but also this was other line managers as well, for example,

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for those who are in, uh, fellowships.

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Um, we also had a fairly representative sample in terms of,

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uh, different levels of, um, grades at the job

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of kind of job titles that people had, as well as the,

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the representation across faculty.

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So, so we were comfortable in saying these,

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these weren’t necessarily representative results,

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but they gave us a good, um, sample of, of the kind

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of experiences that people having across the

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university and across levels.

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So the focus of the questions, the surveys

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and the interviews was these four key topics.

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So firstly, how much interest is there amongst p uh,

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postdocs in terms of wanting to engage with this kind

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of initiative and PIs in terms

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of their interest in supporting career development

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opportunities, uh, for, for postdocs which engage

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with non-academic audiences.

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Secondly, with awareness of the university mechanisms, uh,

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such as knowledge exchange, uh,

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and, uh, consultancy opportunities in the university,

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and awareness of the fact that for, for postdocs

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and their PIs that there are these allocated days, um,

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10 days according to the concordant,

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but actually 12 days in, in terms of, um,

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university of Sheffield policy.

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Then we wanted to know about what kind of uptake there was

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and what the barriers were, uh,

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that were stopping people from engaging

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where they’d expressed an interest in doing so.

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So, before I go on to tell you about our details, uh,

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and what we found in terms of our question results, uh,

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I want to ask you something,

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and I realize this is gonna be a guesstimate perhaps

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for many of you, but it’d be interested to gauge

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what you understand in terms of the levels

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of interest in your, uh, in your schools.

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So I’m gonna pop into the chat bar, um, the,

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uh, links for, for this information, unless either James

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or Kerry can, can do that for me.

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I can’t even find my chat bar at the moment.

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Um, but we will add the, the, uh, information there

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where you might be able to click on that

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through this, this screen.

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And if you could have a look at that and,

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and just have a guesstimate as to what the kind of level

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of interest is in your institution

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and how that relates to actual uptake

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in your institution.

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Brilliant. I can see you are in there and voting already,

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and hopefully I’m gonna be able to then work out how

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to share the results of those polls

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once you’ve finished voting.

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How many people do we have in the room at the moment?

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We’ve got, um, 34.

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Fantastic. Okay. So we’ve got a few more. I

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Think 30 actually, Rebecca,

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because there’s four of us. There’s

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Four of us. Brilliant.

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So few more, few more votes to go yet.

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Has everybody managed to get into that, uh,

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into those polls?

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Same, but just, um, a comment from Sarah

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and I can see the same, so I can see comments,

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but I can’t see the voting.

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Um, no, I’m, I’m, I’m having a similar problem myself.

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Let me just see if I can, um, remember what I did

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to actually show the

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results of that.

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Oh, sorry. Take my vote away. Yeah. Right. Okay.

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Well, that’s really interesting

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and I will have to, um,

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perhaps think once we’ve got a few more votes in,

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I will work out how we share those votes perhaps a bit later

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on when you’re in the breakout room so we can find out, uh,

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what the results are.

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Sorry, that’s a bit of a a, a not great start, isn’t it?

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Alright, don’t worry. Um, we, we will, we will suss that.

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I thought I was being so clever there using a Padlet poll.

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Okay. If you haven’t voted yet, please do so.

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And then, then, as I say, I will try to work out

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what the results of that, those polls are

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and be able to show you that a bit later in the session.

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So, um, in terms of what we found here at the University

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of Sheffield, most

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of the postdoc respondents were at least partly interested

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in, um, in engaging in this kind

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of non-academic career development activity.

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So I don’t think we got any zeros at all.

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Uh, and as you can see there, the, the kind of, uh,

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people were going somewhere between yes, if it’s convenient,

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and I’m fairly interested, um, up towards, you know, even

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veering towards being very interested

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in terms of the levels of interest.

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So that was kind of confirming

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what we thought we knew anecdotally, uh, which was useful.

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We then asked both PIs

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and postdocs how much time they thought was available

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for career development,

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and interestingly, they both came up with a very similar,

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um, finding

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that they thought about a day a month was doable.

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Uh, PIs were actually slightly more generous in terms of

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what they thought was available, but it was a,

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it was a small difference.

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Um, but it was great to know that actually there was,

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there was common ground in terms

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of thinking at least theoretically nominally what type

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of availability there should be for undertaking, uh,

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career development activities.

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Um, for, for postdocs yet,

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when we came to ask them, well,

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how many are you actually using?

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Uh, the, the figures were quite different.

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And, um, here we were asking the, the,

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the graph on the left hand side shows, um, people

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who are using at least one day a year, uh,

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and worryingly, that’s actually fairly low down.

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We split this a, a, a across the, uh, different lengths

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of time that people have been in postdoc posts at the

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University of Sheffield.

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Um, and, and there’s a bit of variation there.

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As you can see, uh, that figure of less of one

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to two years is really interesting

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because they crop up as a bit

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of an outlier group in almost all

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of the findings across the survey,

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which has made us ask some really interesting questions

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about what was going on around that time, uh, and, and,

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and other, what reasons might there be for

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that particularly poor, uh, response in terms

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of those people, um, who, who’ve been here

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between a year and two years.

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But that’s obviously kind of not,

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doesn’t match up in any way, uh, to the,

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the enthusiasm expressed earlier.

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Interesting, if we look at the right hand graph there,

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that PIs felt that more time was being used,

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uh, by their postdocs than the postdocs

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themselves believed was the case.

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And again, there’s some interesting splits across faculties

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in terms of those, um, differences in perception,

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but I won’t show those here.

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Um, so again, really interesting questions there

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for us about, well, actually, what,

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what’s causing this difference in perception?

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Our postdocs being, uh, PIs being overly optimistic in terms

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of thinking about what’s being used,

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but also, are we counting the same thing here?

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What do we actually mean?

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And, and again, we had a fairly vague questions here,

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so perhaps this is about survey design,

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but I think there are, there are wider concerns here, uh,

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that we are, we’re currently trying to work through in terms

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of, well, what, what actually is meant

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by career development activity

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and what, what was meant more specifically

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by non-academic career development activity.

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Okay. Another brainstorm this time,

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we don’t need any results from this,

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but again, if you could go into the, uh, Padlet

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and let me know what you think

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the barriers are at your institution.

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What are you aware of that might be reasons from,

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from your institutional perspective, um, that,

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that might be stopping postdocs, carrying out the type

246
00:12:15.645 –> 00:12:19.165
of activities that they say that they’re interested in.

247
00:12:19.945 –> 00:12:23.685
Um, so if you could log into that please, James

248
00:12:23.825 –> 00:12:26.565
or Kerry, if you could pop the, the link into the chat bar

249
00:12:26.565 –> 00:12:27.685
as well, that would be really great.

250
00:12:27.775 –> 00:12:28.245
Thank you.

251
00:12:34.665 –> 00:12:38.665
Thank you. And we’ve, we’ve got a comment in there

252
00:12:38.665 –> 00:12:39.785
and some more people joining.

253
00:12:50.895 –> 00:12:53.465
Okay. Too busy on their own projects.

254
00:12:55.855 –> 00:12:58.345
Lack of community. Okay. That’s a really good point.

255
00:12:58.345 –> 00:13:00.825
Sharing, sharing the knowledge. How do you do this?

256
00:13:01.225 –> 00:13:04.485
Encouraging each other. Yeah.

257
00:13:05.785 –> 00:13:09.885
Uh, prioritization. Yeah. Time.

258
00:13:10.745 –> 00:13:11.165
Mm-hmm.

259
00:13:21.955 –> 00:13:26.125
Lack of support. Yeah. Focus, yeah.

260
00:13:26.255 –> 00:13:28.325
Value payoff of, of the, the activities

261
00:13:33.935 –> 00:13:35.195
and something it wasn’t good.

262
00:13:36.585 –> 00:13:40.875
Yeah. Agree with that one. Lack of confidence using time.

263
00:13:41.065 –> 00:13:44.685
Yeah. Some

264
00:13:44.685 –> 00:13:46.125
confusion about what counts.

265
00:13:46.155 –> 00:13:46.445
Yeah.

266
00:13:50.455 –> 00:13:51.245
Don’t think’s available.

267
00:13:51.605 –> 00:13:53.845
Suitable. Yeah. Fantastic.

268
00:13:54.115 –> 00:13:56.845
It’s, it’s good to know we’re not massive outliers here in

269
00:13:56.845 –> 00:13:58.885
terms of what we found, um,

270
00:13:59.265 –> 00:14:02.325
but that these are common themes

271
00:14:03.225 –> 00:14:05.805
across institutions didn’t know about it.

272
00:14:05.805 –> 00:14:09.685
Yeah. That trying to get information out, um,

273
00:14:10.305 –> 00:14:13.765
making sure people are aware of, of what there is, lack

274
00:14:13.765 –> 00:14:15.325
of time despite having support.

275
00:14:18.405 –> 00:14:20.525
Brilliant. Thank you. Keep, keep popping your,

276
00:14:20.525 –> 00:14:21.565
your thoughts on there.

277
00:14:22.425 –> 00:14:27.035
Um, lack of time, timeline

278
00:14:27.035 –> 00:14:28.915
to finish project too much enough, but not what they want.

279
00:14:29.055 –> 00:14:31.315
That’s a really interesting point as well.

280
00:14:32.065 –> 00:14:33.595
Lack of hope for good opportunities.

281
00:14:36.795 –> 00:14:41.155
Brilliant. Yeah.

282
00:14:41.415 –> 00:14:46.355
So those all look, uh, very much like

283
00:14:46.865 –> 00:14:48.355
what we were finding.

284
00:14:48.855 –> 00:14:49.075
Um,

285
00:14:58.395 –> 00:14:58.745
Great.

286
00:14:58.955 –> 00:15:00.985
Thank you all for, for adding to those do key pad.

287
00:15:00.985 –> 00:15:03.545
That’s a really interesting, um, list there

288
00:15:06.145 –> 00:15:08.845
to go back to the slides.

289
00:15:11.385 –> 00:15:13.125
Um, click the right button.

290
00:15:14.225 –> 00:15:17.805
Uh, these are just a few of the kind of real, um, comments

291
00:15:17.955 –> 00:15:20.405
that, that got us scratching our heads and,

292
00:15:20.505 –> 00:15:23.445
and, uh, feed into some of the other concerns

293
00:15:23.445 –> 00:15:26.125
that I’m gonna break down on, on on the next few slides.

294
00:15:26.985 –> 00:15:28.725
Um, and,

295
00:15:29.025 –> 00:15:31.965
and confirmed some of the messaging about things which,

296
00:15:31.975 –> 00:15:35.245
which we suspected were happening, but,

297
00:15:35.265 –> 00:15:36.445
but weren’t completely sure.

298
00:15:36.545 –> 00:15:40.415
So, um, that, that first one that I’ve been told

299
00:15:40.415 –> 00:15:43.295
to use annual leave for professional development activities,

300
00:15:44.285 –> 00:15:45.735
that was not a one-off.

301
00:15:45.955 –> 00:15:50.215
Uh, we heard a, a few other people, both PIs also saying

302
00:15:50.215 –> 00:15:52.095
that this was what, not they,

303
00:15:52.095 –> 00:15:54.255
but what they felt other PIs were saying.

304
00:15:54.915 –> 00:15:58.295
Um, so that was, that was a really interesting one for us

305
00:15:58.355 –> 00:16:00.775
and, and gave concern to us.

306
00:16:00.775 –> 00:16:02.415
And we’ll go through kind of in a bit

307
00:16:02.415 –> 00:16:03.495
more detail some of these things.

308
00:16:04.075 –> 00:16:06.335
Um, and these are the funder become

309
00:16:06.375 –> 00:16:09.735
before the needs of the postdoc in terms of development,

310
00:16:10.525 –> 00:16:13.455
clarity, lack of clarity in terms of funders

311
00:16:13.555 –> 00:16:16.255
and what they’re allowed to take or not allowed to take,

312
00:16:16.995 –> 00:16:18.415
and lack of discussion.

313
00:16:18.645 –> 00:16:20.055
What came up with one of your comments?

314
00:16:20.085 –> 00:16:21.095
Lack of afinity not knowing

315
00:16:21.095 –> 00:16:22.615
what other people are actually really doing.

316
00:16:23.165 –> 00:16:25.495
This idea that some people might be doing something,

317
00:16:25.835 –> 00:16:28.495
but we’re not really sure and nobody’s talking about it.

318
00:16:29.235 –> 00:16:33.255
Um, so I’ve broken these down, the barriers that came up in,

319
00:16:33.255 –> 00:16:36.615
in the feedback in terms of different, um, themes.

320
00:16:37.315 –> 00:16:39.255
And the first one there as, as several

321
00:16:39.255 –> 00:16:40.775
of you identified, is time.

322
00:16:41.515 –> 00:16:44.815
Um, just being able to keep your head above water

323
00:16:44.955 –> 00:16:48.535
as a postdoc is, is definitely a, a challenge

324
00:16:48.535 –> 00:16:49.735
that we’re all aware of.

325
00:16:50.315 –> 00:16:53.695
Um, and if one does have time, the focus is gonna be on,

326
00:16:53.695 –> 00:16:54.695
well, where’s my next job?

327
00:16:55.075 –> 00:16:57.655
Uh, you know, how am I gonna make the time to,

328
00:16:57.715 –> 00:16:58.815
to create the outputs

329
00:16:58.815 –> 00:17:00.135
and the CV that I’m going to need

330
00:17:00.135 –> 00:17:03.295
to be competitive when it comes to renew my contract?

331
00:17:03.595 –> 00:17:05.055
So that was a really important comment

332
00:17:05.055 –> 00:17:06.735
that came up in various guises.

333
00:17:07.315 –> 00:17:11.135
Um, yeah, and then maximizing output from the project again.

334
00:17:11.875 –> 00:17:15.895
And, um, the, the, the lead in time for setting up some

335
00:17:15.895 –> 00:17:18.255
of these opportunities was also something that came up

336
00:17:18.255 –> 00:17:19.815
with a few of our postdocs.

337
00:17:19.815 –> 00:17:22.655
So, you know, this person had only found out about it

338
00:17:22.655 –> 00:17:23.815
towards the end of their contract.

339
00:17:23.815 –> 00:17:25.975
Well, what can you do with three months when, again,

340
00:17:25.975 –> 00:17:28.455
firstly you’re gonna be focusing on what your next job is,

341
00:17:28.675 –> 00:17:31.175
but also, you know, setting up a, a piece

342
00:17:31.175 –> 00:17:33.175
of knowledge exchange or some consultancy work,

343
00:17:33.325 –> 00:17:35.495
it’s probably not going to fit into that timeframe.

344
00:17:35.915 –> 00:17:38.615
Uh, so that does kind of then feed into the idea of

345
00:17:39.405 –> 00:17:42.975
knowledge, which was, which was the next set of comments

346
00:17:43.525 –> 00:17:44.615
that we thought about.

347
00:17:45.275 –> 00:17:48.175
Um, so this, this was an interesting one from one

348
00:17:48.175 –> 00:17:50.485
of our postdocs who said, you know,

349
00:17:51.005 –> 00:17:54.125
I didn’t even know about it until my PI suggested it.

350
00:17:54.785 –> 00:17:55.965
Um, and,

351
00:17:56.025 –> 00:17:58.405
and even now, having done a secondment, this,

352
00:17:58.405 –> 00:18:00.725
this postdoc wasn’t really sure of how it worked.

353
00:18:00.725 –> 00:18:02.885
Fortunately, they had a PI who were able, who was able

354
00:18:02.885 –> 00:18:04.965
to steer them in the right direction

355
00:18:04.985 –> 00:18:06.405
and make sure that happened,

356
00:18:06.545 –> 00:18:09.645
but, uh, they wouldn’t be able to share the, the information

357
00:18:09.645 –> 00:18:11.645
with others because they really don’t know

358
00:18:12.115 –> 00:18:13.325
what that was about.

359
00:18:13.625 –> 00:18:14.765
But of mis knowledge,

360
00:18:14.765 –> 00:18:17.645
perhaps only academics can do consultancy.

361
00:18:17.645 –> 00:18:21.325
And we, we, we, we found this kind of misunderstanding,

362
00:18:21.325 –> 00:18:22.405
misperceptions or,

363
00:18:22.405 –> 00:18:26.325
or lack of clarity about, uh, what was actually available,

364
00:18:26.545 –> 00:18:30.645
who was eligible for, for some of the opportunities, um,

365
00:18:31.025 –> 00:18:34.045
was a reflection perhaps of lack of clarity in some

366
00:18:34.045 –> 00:18:37.805
of the central university documents, as well as those rumors

367
00:18:37.825 –> 00:18:39.485
or, or things that go around

368
00:18:39.545 –> 00:18:41.085
or how do we get information out.

369
00:18:41.085 –> 00:18:45.525
As well as I know from, from speaking to, um, people,

370
00:18:45.535 –> 00:18:48.605
colleagues in, in other institutions, the, the big challenge

371
00:18:48.625 –> 00:18:50.685
of of actually getting messages out

372
00:18:50.705 –> 00:18:53.885
and in, in a format which, which postdocs are likely

373
00:18:53.945 –> 00:18:55.685
to engage with and read is, is,

374
00:18:55.745 –> 00:18:57.685
is an ongoing challenge for many of us.

375
00:18:58.425 –> 00:19:00.805
Um, so yeah, lack of knowledge about the actual process,

376
00:19:00.955 –> 00:19:03.685
even if people do know that it’s, it’s aware.

377
00:19:03.705 –> 00:19:06.605
And again, we identified challenges with,

378
00:19:06.635 –> 00:19:08.245
with finding out about things.

379
00:19:08.785 –> 00:19:12.645
We actually have some amazing ke pages, large exchange pages

380
00:19:13.185 –> 00:19:15.125
on, uh, some of our university pages.

381
00:19:15.265 –> 00:19:18.685
But actually getting to the landing page to be able to, uh,

382
00:19:18.755 –> 00:19:19.885
find all that information

383
00:19:19.905 –> 00:19:22.085
and understand how the process works, even

384
00:19:22.105 –> 00:19:25.605
for internal people can be, uh, somewhat tricky.

385
00:19:26.815 –> 00:19:29.435
Um, yeah, so finding information

386
00:19:29.695 –> 00:19:31.675
and then the, the processes.

387
00:19:31.695 –> 00:19:33.275
So even if we find the information,

388
00:19:33.275 –> 00:19:34.635
does it actually apply to me?

389
00:19:34.995 –> 00:19:36.515
I know some people are doing consultancy,

390
00:19:36.575 –> 00:19:38.755
but you know, how did they arrange that?

391
00:19:38.855 –> 00:19:41.475
Who do I talk to if I’m interested in doing it?

392
00:19:41.815 –> 00:19:43.715
What’s the process for setting it up?

393
00:19:44.135 –> 00:19:47.275
So again, that was some really useful, uh, feedback

394
00:19:47.275 –> 00:19:50.035
for us in terms of, you know, suggesting concrete things

395
00:19:50.035 –> 00:19:52.595
that, that we can start to act on to,

396
00:19:52.735 –> 00:19:56.155
to improve the knowledge part of, uh, that kind

397
00:19:56.155 –> 00:19:58.635
of misperception or lack of information.

398
00:20:00.335 –> 00:20:02.875
The next thing that came up was one of confidence.

399
00:20:03.495 –> 00:20:06.715
If you are a junior ECR, that kind of power dynamic

400
00:20:06.985 –> 00:20:09.555
with your pi, are you able to go to them

401
00:20:09.615 –> 00:20:12.355
and say, uh, well actually I’d really love

402
00:20:12.355 –> 00:20:14.315
to do this bit of external work.

403
00:20:14.335 –> 00:20:15.675
Is that okay with you?

404
00:20:16.135 –> 00:20:18.035
Or do you feel that that has to be raised

405
00:20:18.415 –> 00:20:19.715
by the PI themselves?

406
00:20:19.855 –> 00:20:21.395
You feel it’s perhaps, uh,

407
00:20:21.395 –> 00:20:23.315
something you can’t have at the beginning

408
00:20:23.375 –> 00:20:25.315
of your career you need to work towards?

409
00:20:25.575 –> 00:20:27.475
You may not feel that you’ve actually got the skills

410
00:20:27.575 –> 00:20:28.875
to go out and, and offer.

411
00:20:29.695 –> 00:20:32.075
Um, that idea of, particularly from arts

412
00:20:32.075 –> 00:20:34.435
and humanities researchers as it was voiced.

413
00:20:34.695 –> 00:20:37.395
You know, if, if, if the government doesn’t really care

414
00:20:37.395 –> 00:20:38.635
about arts humanities,

415
00:20:38.935 –> 00:20:40.515
why would industry want to hear from us?

416
00:20:40.515 –> 00:20:42.115
What, what, what do we have to offer?

417
00:20:43.095 –> 00:20:46.475
Um, and then this kind of, the, this,

418
00:20:46.475 –> 00:20:50.005
this was a comment actually by, um, somebody

419
00:20:50.005 –> 00:20:53.845
who is a PI themselves that, that they see, uh, engagement

420
00:20:53.865 –> 00:20:58.835
as being good, where PIs are actively encouraging that.

421
00:20:59.495 –> 00:21:00.755
And of course, those people

422
00:21:00.855 –> 00:21:04.315
who are in a more comfortable funding position, uh,

423
00:21:04.315 –> 00:21:06.875
versus those who are a bit, you know,

424
00:21:06.875 –> 00:21:07.875
perhaps doing part-time

425
00:21:07.895 –> 00:21:11.555
or multiple part-time, uh, contracts, uh,

426
00:21:11.695 –> 00:21:14.075
are are obviously struggling a bit more and, and,

427
00:21:14.695 –> 00:21:16.915
and struggling to be encouraged to do that.

428
00:21:17.615 –> 00:21:19.435
So that was a, a third barrier that

429
00:21:19.545 –> 00:21:23.795
that came outta the feedback, uh, particularly from

430
00:21:24.315 –> 00:21:25.435
postdocs themselves.

431
00:21:27.315 –> 00:21:29.765
Another comment that relates to one of the, the,

432
00:21:29.825 –> 00:21:32.285
the comments in the, uh, on,

433
00:21:32.305 –> 00:21:34.925
on the Padlet there is this idea of, well,

434
00:21:34.945 –> 00:21:37.045
is this actually gonna be useful for me?

435
00:21:37.705 –> 00:21:42.605
Um, some postdocs voiced this concern that actually

436
00:21:42.625 –> 00:21:43.685
for certain kinds of work,

437
00:21:43.685 –> 00:21:46.685
and this was, this was mostly arts, human social sciences,

438
00:21:47.015 –> 00:21:50.685
where your work is perhaps a little bit more open to being

439
00:21:51.405 –> 00:21:52.885
misconstrued or,

440
00:21:53.185 –> 00:21:56.845
or twisted at, at least from a perception.

441
00:21:57.385 –> 00:22:00.205
Um, people are concerned that if they do speak out,

442
00:22:00.265 –> 00:22:04.125
if they do engage, uh, that they could be misrepresented

443
00:22:04.225 –> 00:22:06.645
and that could then have an impact on their standing,

444
00:22:06.655 –> 00:22:09.925
their credibility as a researcher, as an academic.

445
00:22:10.665 –> 00:22:14.445
Um, I was concerned that actually if you start to engage,

446
00:22:14.545 –> 00:22:16.565
you are, you’re on a one way track,

447
00:22:16.585 –> 00:22:19.445
and your pi will, will firstly see you

448
00:22:19.445 –> 00:22:22.365
as not being interested in academic career anymore.

449
00:22:22.745 –> 00:22:26.885
Uh, but also, uh, you, you may not get back, uh, which

450
00:22:26.885 –> 00:22:28.405
of course contrasts in this comment.

451
00:22:28.505 –> 00:22:29.885
The second comment there with the fact

452
00:22:29.885 –> 00:22:33.125
that actually those people who do this engagement, uh,

453
00:22:33.355 –> 00:22:36.125
come back with, with some really valuable skills

454
00:22:36.145 –> 00:22:38.045
and connections, which will serve them,

455
00:22:38.155 –> 00:22:40.885
whether they go into industry eventually

456
00:22:40.945 –> 00:22:45.745
or they stay in their academic, um, pathway, um,

457
00:22:46.565 –> 00:22:47.945
and this idea

458
00:22:47.945 –> 00:22:50.585
that actually people aren’t seeing the opportunity

459
00:22:50.655 –> 00:22:54.345
that presents themselves because they are so focused.

460
00:22:54.445 –> 00:22:57.425
And we have this also with the comments on time on just

461
00:22:58.005 –> 00:23:01.345
making the next academic step happen

462
00:23:01.445 –> 00:23:03.305
and all the work that goes into that.

463
00:23:03.405 –> 00:23:05.945
It, it’s, it’s hard, you know, it’s then hard

464
00:23:05.945 –> 00:23:09.865
to recognize the value of those external opportunities.

465
00:23:10.245 –> 00:23:13.545
And, and as we, we always say, both for an academic career

466
00:23:13.645 –> 00:23:18.465
and for a potential, uh, pathway out of academia, uh, it,

467
00:23:18.535 –> 00:23:20.585
it’s never kind of only in one direction,

468
00:23:23.885 –> 00:23:27.705
the final kind of real set of barriers, uh, identified, uh,

469
00:23:27.845 –> 00:23:32.185
by postdocs as to why they’re not taking up, uh, these,

470
00:23:32.195 –> 00:23:34.385
these kind of external opportunities.

471
00:23:35.325 –> 00:23:38.585
Uh, um, again, this is something that we hear again

472
00:23:38.585 –> 00:23:40.705
and again, this kind of, if you’ve got any kind

473
00:23:40.705 –> 00:23:43.785
of life obligations, caring responsibilities, whether

474
00:23:43.785 –> 00:23:45.065
that’s children, older people,

475
00:23:45.745 –> 00:23:49.085
or anything in between, uh, it, it’s a massive challenge

476
00:23:49.085 –> 00:23:51.485
because you are already trying to squeeze the most out

477
00:23:51.485 –> 00:23:53.125
of a very limited number of hours.

478
00:23:53.785 –> 00:23:55.965
So something that feels like it’s extra

479
00:23:55.985 –> 00:23:59.765
or it’s optional, just doesn’t get any kind of attention.

480
00:24:00.505 –> 00:24:01.765
Um, and that can come

481
00:24:01.765 –> 00:24:04.365
that we had coming up in various guises was

482
00:24:04.365 –> 00:24:08.285
that actually these days need to be, uh, both paid for

483
00:24:08.385 –> 00:24:11.325
and put in the contract, put in writing that they exist

484
00:24:11.865 –> 00:24:16.365
in order to be able to, um, to, to kind

485
00:24:16.365 –> 00:24:19.645
of justify spending your time on doing career

486
00:24:19.645 –> 00:24:20.725
development activities.

487
00:24:21.425 –> 00:24:24.645
And that second quote there also mentions child cancer on,

488
00:24:24.645 –> 00:24:27.885
but I thought brought another really interesting, uh,

489
00:24:27.915 –> 00:24:30.085
challenge up, and that’s the, the position

490
00:24:30.265 –> 00:24:33.805
of our international researchers of whom we have a, a good

491
00:24:34.365 –> 00:24:35.605
proportion here in Sheffield.

492
00:24:35.825 –> 00:24:38.405
You know, you’ve not only got all of those things to juggle,

493
00:24:38.705 –> 00:24:40.365
but you’ve then also got, well,

494
00:24:40.445 –> 00:24:42.565
what is the visa requirement changing?

495
00:24:42.665 –> 00:24:44.645
How does this affect me? How does this affect my family?

496
00:24:44.905 –> 00:24:47.605
How does this affect any payments I might additionally need

497
00:24:47.605 –> 00:24:49.205
to, to come up with?

498
00:24:49.505 –> 00:24:50.525
You know, how does the,

499
00:24:50.525 –> 00:24:54.085
the potential gap in contracts then affect me in terms

500
00:24:54.105 –> 00:24:55.565
of my visa situation?

501
00:24:55.985 –> 00:24:58.125
So those things that, that they’re really kind of

502
00:24:59.495 –> 00:25:03.275
big massive challenges, uh, in, in terms of being able

503
00:25:03.275 –> 00:25:07.355
to help postdocs to, to actually take these opportunities

504
00:25:07.465 –> 00:25:09.595
that they have expressed an interest in.

505
00:25:12.325 –> 00:25:16.065
So one of the, the comments that came up in the, uh, Padlet,

506
00:25:16.485 –> 00:25:20.185
uh, that you, uh, nicely wrote was, was this idea

507
00:25:20.185 –> 00:25:22.745
of the lack of support or encouragement from PIs.

508
00:25:22.745 –> 00:25:24.745
And that was certainly something, uh,

509
00:25:25.015 –> 00:25:26.585
that, that was mentioned.

510
00:25:27.285 –> 00:25:31.225
Um, so one of the questions we asked p postdocs was,

511
00:25:31.285 –> 00:25:35.345
do you think your pi uh, is supportive of you, uh,

512
00:25:35.345 –> 00:25:36.985
taking career development activity,

513
00:25:37.105 –> 00:25:40.345
particularly in this kind of, in, in the, the areas

514
00:25:40.345 –> 00:25:43.305
that we were focusing on, knowledge exchange, consultancy

515
00:25:43.885 –> 00:25:45.385
and, uh, secondment.

516
00:25:46.245 –> 00:25:50.705
And generally there was quite a mixed response here, uh, as

517
00:25:50.705 –> 00:25:52.385
to whether people think their post, their,

518
00:25:52.385 –> 00:25:53.665
their PIs are supportive.

519
00:25:54.365 –> 00:25:59.065
Uh, so there was a sense that yes,

520
00:25:59.655 –> 00:26:02.985
generally speaking, as long as there is some kind of a plan

521
00:26:03.365 –> 00:26:04.985
or there’s a, you know, you know,

522
00:26:05.805 –> 00:26:08.425
the postdocs themselves are being really enthusiastic about

523
00:26:08.425 –> 00:26:13.025
things, uh, we, there, there does seem to be support for it.

524
00:26:13.165 –> 00:26:16.185
Notice again, that really interesting slump in terms

525
00:26:16.185 –> 00:26:19.545
of those people who’ve been here from one to two years, uh,

526
00:26:19.605 –> 00:26:22.385
as we had in the previous, um, chart.

527
00:26:22.925 –> 00:26:26.585
So generally speaking, people seem to think

528
00:26:26.585 –> 00:26:28.385
that their PIs are supportive

529
00:26:28.845 –> 00:26:30.665
of their career development activity.

530
00:26:31.605 –> 00:26:34.905
The PIs themselves, when we asked were, were also, uh,

531
00:26:35.315 –> 00:26:38.065
expressing similar levels of, of interest

532
00:26:38.125 –> 00:26:39.305
and, and general support.

533
00:26:39.325 –> 00:26:41.385
So across the board, this was really encouraging.

534
00:26:41.455 –> 00:26:44.125
Both PIs and postdocs think that, that they,

535
00:26:44.425 –> 00:26:49.085
the PIs will be supportive, um, of this kind of activity.

536
00:26:49.825 –> 00:26:54.085
Um, and yet interestingly, um,

537
00:26:55.525 –> 00:26:58.805
postdocs may not actually be testing that out.

538
00:26:58.805 –> 00:27:00.525
They, they’re working on hunches here.

539
00:27:00.545 –> 00:27:02.565
So for example, those who are put off

540
00:27:02.565 –> 00:27:06.565
because they feel that their PIs may not be supportive

541
00:27:06.565 –> 00:27:10.725
of such activity in some cases haven’t ever actually, uh,

542
00:27:10.725 –> 00:27:12.445
spoken to their PIs about this.

543
00:27:13.145 –> 00:27:16.965
Um, and really interesting, um, data that came up there

544
00:27:16.965 –> 00:27:19.205
with very much the same levels being reported.

545
00:27:19.425 –> 00:27:21.805
So almost a quarter of our, uh,

546
00:27:21.835 –> 00:27:24.725
respondents said they’d never discussed career development

547
00:27:24.725 –> 00:27:26.205
activities with their pi.

548
00:27:26.825 –> 00:27:29.725
And that really nicely matched that idea of, of, of

549
00:27:30.475 –> 00:27:34.005
just over three quarters of PIs saying that they raised

550
00:27:34.925 –> 00:27:37.045
specifically key activity, uh,

551
00:27:37.045 –> 00:27:39.645
but that they raised these topics in conversations

552
00:27:39.675 –> 00:27:42.885
with their, sorry, FTRS, I forgot to change that there.

553
00:27:42.885 –> 00:27:44.365
That should be postdocs.

554
00:27:45.185 –> 00:27:47.885
Um, so, so that was really interesting to know

555
00:27:47.885 –> 00:27:49.365
that people are concerned about this

556
00:27:49.625 –> 00:27:52.925
and perhaps their concerns are being fueled by,

557
00:27:53.925 –> 00:27:56.645
I won’t say rumors, but by conversations that are going on

558
00:27:56.645 –> 00:27:59.325
around them, which may reflect the real situation

559
00:27:59.325 –> 00:28:01.045
of other postdocs who,

560
00:28:01.045 –> 00:28:03.125
whose line managers may be less supportive

561
00:28:03.305 –> 00:28:06.005
but aren’t necessarily reflective of the situation

562
00:28:06.005 –> 00:28:08.005
of their own line managers.

563
00:28:08.105 –> 00:28:10.805
So, so this prompted a lot of thinking for us about, well,

564
00:28:10.805 –> 00:28:14.365
how do we make sure these things are routinely

565
00:28:14.995 –> 00:28:19.125
discussed in a way that takes the, uh, the worry out of it,

566
00:28:19.665 –> 00:28:21.965
uh, for, for postdocs who want to

567
00:28:22.555 –> 00:28:24.645
explore career development activities, but

568
00:28:24.665 –> 00:28:26.765
but may be concerned that that raising it

569
00:28:26.765 –> 00:28:28.645
with their PI gets a negative response,

570
00:28:29.545 –> 00:28:31.045
um, on, on that thing.

571
00:28:31.185 –> 00:28:35.925
So thinking then about what, identify what barriers

572
00:28:36.665 –> 00:28:39.165
PIs were identifying in the survey, and,

573
00:28:39.225 –> 00:28:42.245
and again, I don’t, this would be a surprise to anybody

574
00:28:42.315 –> 00:28:46.245
that time, particularly where people are on, um, you know,

575
00:28:46.245 –> 00:28:50.405
these grant, grant, uh, funded projects,

576
00:28:50.405 –> 00:28:53.805
which specify a hundred percent of the postdoc time

577
00:28:54.225 –> 00:28:58.365
as being, uh, dedicated to working on that project.

578
00:29:00.585 –> 00:29:04.125
So there were some interesting responses

579
00:29:04.125 –> 00:29:06.805
and further responses where PIs were saying just, well,

580
00:29:06.805 –> 00:29:08.805
of course there isn’t time, but then there isn’t time

581
00:29:08.805 –> 00:29:11.005
for half of the academic research that we do.

582
00:29:11.425 –> 00:29:12.885
You know, theoretically on a piece

583
00:29:12.885 –> 00:29:14.045
of paper it says this time,

584
00:29:14.045 –> 00:29:15.565
but we know most of us end up doing

585
00:29:15.565 –> 00:29:17.925
that in our evenings, in our weekends.

586
00:29:18.505 –> 00:29:21.845
We create the time that we need, uh, in order to do this.

587
00:29:22.425 –> 00:29:27.045
So that was was, was also a, a response that came up.

588
00:29:27.585 –> 00:29:31.085
Um, but there was, uh, there were a number

589
00:29:31.085 –> 00:29:33.245
of people concerned about available time,

590
00:29:33.335 –> 00:29:35.485
about costing models, um,

591
00:29:35.785 –> 00:29:37.245
and about, uh, this,

592
00:29:37.365 –> 00:29:39.365
I thought this was an interesting comment here about the

593
00:29:39.365 –> 00:29:40.925
fact that actually because we asked people

594
00:29:41.120 –> 00:29:45.485
to do other mandatory training that also is being counted

595
00:29:45.825 –> 00:29:47.085
as career development.

596
00:29:47.085 –> 00:29:48.845
And we might argue, again, is

597
00:29:48.845 –> 00:29:50.685
that actually career development time?

598
00:29:50.945 –> 00:29:52.165
But from a PI perspective,

599
00:29:52.225 –> 00:29:53.925
if we don’t do it in career development time

600
00:29:53.925 –> 00:29:57.325
and there’s no time, uh, allocated in, in, in the funding,

601
00:29:58.745 –> 00:30:00.245
how do they do that other training?

602
00:30:00.905 –> 00:30:03.725
So, um, so some really interesting

603
00:30:04.425 –> 00:30:07.765
if not surprising responses there from, from PAs about,

604
00:30:07.765 –> 00:30:09.325
well, look, I’d, I’d love to support this.

605
00:30:09.995 –> 00:30:11.845
There’s no time to do it in the contract.

606
00:30:11.845 –> 00:30:13.845
We’ve already got a full contract of work to do.

607
00:30:16.145 –> 00:30:19.525
Um, but also of interest, lack of institutional support.

608
00:30:19.745 –> 00:30:22.965
So, uh, lack of kind of details.

609
00:30:23.225 –> 00:30:26.925
How do I help my, my postdocs do this if they want to, uh,

610
00:30:27.085 –> 00:30:29.525
comments on lack of being able to find out the paperwork,

611
00:30:29.715 –> 00:30:32.685
find the paperwork to be able to do this, um,

612
00:30:34.965 –> 00:30:38.725
postdocs not being able to be paid misunderstandings about

613
00:30:38.785 –> 00:30:39.885
how that actually works.

614
00:30:40.025 –> 00:30:43.165
If they’re doing some kind of consultancy, again,

615
00:30:43.165 –> 00:30:45.125
from a central perspective, we might say, oh yeah,

616
00:30:45.125 –> 00:30:46.405
but the details are out there.

617
00:30:46.745 –> 00:30:49.885
It doesn’t matter if PIs aren’t able to find them

618
00:30:49.885 –> 00:30:50.885
and postdocs can’t find them,

619
00:30:50.885 –> 00:30:53.565
and together they can’t actually make the case for doing

620
00:30:53.995 –> 00:30:55.045
that kind of work.

621
00:30:55.545 –> 00:31:00.365
Uh, and then the lack of funding to, to cover, um, activity,

622
00:31:00.495 –> 00:31:05.125
which needs to be backfilled if, uh, postdocs are going

623
00:31:05.125 –> 00:31:08.005
to be going off and doing things in, in what’s seen

624
00:31:08.005 –> 00:31:10.685
as their kind of core, uh, contracted hours.

625
00:31:11.105 –> 00:31:14.685
Uh, that’s the perspective of, of, of some PIs at least.

626
00:31:15.145 –> 00:31:16.565
And that came up several times.

627
00:31:16.865 –> 00:31:20.925
So the institution might say that it wants postdocs

628
00:31:20.925 –> 00:31:22.405
to do this, and it wants PIs

629
00:31:22.405 –> 00:31:24.965
to support their postdocs in taking on this kind

630
00:31:24.965 –> 00:31:26.525
of career development activity,

631
00:31:26.945 –> 00:31:29.445
but the practical support needs to be better, uh,

632
00:31:29.445 –> 00:31:30.565
to make this possible.

633
00:31:32.705 –> 00:31:35.845
And then as we’ve, we’ve already mentioned this idea of

634
00:31:35.915 –> 00:31:38.685
what, what do we mean by career development activities?

635
00:31:39.545 –> 00:31:41.765
Um, you know, and, and,

636
00:31:41.785 –> 00:31:44.885
and what counts, uh, in, in that space.

637
00:31:45.065 –> 00:31:48.925
Is it only, you know, formal ke or consultancy work or,

638
00:31:49.305 –> 00:31:52.805
or could we count, um, other things such as engagement

639
00:31:52.805 –> 00:31:55.725
with community groups, if that works in terms

640
00:31:55.725 –> 00:31:57.805
of your research interests and your search profile.

641
00:31:58.385 –> 00:32:01.645
Um, but it’s not one of those university sanctioned things.

642
00:32:01.645 –> 00:32:02.925
So it’s a, what do we actually,

643
00:32:03.155 –> 00:32:04.805
what are we actually talking about here?

644
00:32:05.465 –> 00:32:10.285
Um, but also, uh, really interesting comment here about,

645
00:32:10.285 –> 00:32:14.685
well, actually our whole setup is still kind of, um,

646
00:32:16.535 –> 00:32:20.165
gravitates towards preparing people for career development

647
00:32:20.425 –> 00:32:22.445
for an academic career, uh,

648
00:32:22.445 –> 00:32:24.165
which I thought was an interesting comment given we were

649
00:32:24.405 –> 00:32:27.445
specifically asking about non-academic, uh,

650
00:32:27.695 –> 00:32:29.685
engagement forms here.

651
00:32:30.105 –> 00:32:34.165
Uh, but still a PI saying, well, you know, actually we,

652
00:32:34.265 –> 00:32:38.605
we do cater too much for, for those kind of who only want

653
00:32:38.605 –> 00:32:41.245
to stay in an academic pathway, even though we know

654
00:32:41.555 –> 00:32:43.725
that there are many people, many researchers

655
00:32:43.905 –> 00:32:46.885
who either don’t want to continue in that pathway

656
00:32:47.225 –> 00:32:51.165
or life will show that they do not continue in that pathway

657
00:32:51.465 –> 00:32:52.605
for, for for many reasons.

658
00:32:56.285 –> 00:32:58.615
Okay. So that you’ve heard a lot from me.

659
00:32:58.915 –> 00:33:01.815
Um, what I’m going to do now is to ask you if you can,

660
00:33:01.835 –> 00:33:03.215
to go into a breakout group.

661
00:33:03.395 –> 00:33:06.095
If you can’t join a breakout group for technical reasons

662
00:33:06.235 –> 00:33:09.695
or location reasons, please do stay in the main group

663
00:33:09.755 –> 00:33:12.495
and we’ll try and have a bit of a chat there, um, either

664
00:33:12.495 –> 00:33:15.255
with Mike’s or through the chat bar if I can find it.

665
00:33:15.715 –> 00:33:18.455
Uh, but I’d like you to go into rooms if you could please,

666
00:33:18.995 –> 00:33:21.415
if you’ve got a camera or you could do a screenshot just

667
00:33:21.415 –> 00:33:22.535
to capture those questions.

668
00:33:22.535 –> 00:33:25.895
They’re gonna ask you to think about those two questions,

669
00:33:25.955 –> 00:33:28.455
please, in each, um, breakout room.

670
00:33:28.455 –> 00:33:30.415
Firstly, what’s the good practice that you’re aware

671
00:33:30.415 –> 00:33:32.015
of might be in your institution

672
00:33:32.355 –> 00:33:36.095
or it might be elsewhere, in terms of supporting this kind

673
00:33:36.095 –> 00:33:39.095
of career development activity, uh, particularly

674
00:33:39.095 –> 00:33:41.175
where it’s engaging with organizations

675
00:33:41.285 –> 00:33:42.975
outside the academic world,

676
00:33:43.715 –> 00:33:46.935
and is there an action, you know, having listened to some

677
00:33:46.935 –> 00:33:48.695
of the things that we’ve been talking about today

678
00:33:48.885 –> 00:33:52.415
that you think your institution should, uh, take

679
00:33:52.875 –> 00:33:54.295
to increase activity.

680
00:33:54.515 –> 00:33:56.295
So those two comments, please.

681
00:33:56.785 –> 00:34:00.855
Kerry is going to marvelously arrange you into breakout

682
00:34:00.855 –> 00:34:04.975
groups, and hopefully you’ll be invited to join one shortly.

683
00:34:05.715 –> 00:34:09.195
Uh, great.

684
00:34:09.195 –> 00:34:10.995
It seems that most people are back in now.

685
00:34:11.615 –> 00:34:13.955
Um, so what I’m really keen

686
00:34:13.975 –> 00:34:15.955
to hear about is whether you managed

687
00:34:15.955 –> 00:34:18.995
to identify good practice that you, uh,

688
00:34:19.105 –> 00:34:21.475
know about either in your institution or elsewhere.

689
00:34:22.095 –> 00:34:24.595
Um, if you had something that was,

690
00:34:24.655 –> 00:34:25.755
was discussed in your group,

691
00:34:25.755 –> 00:34:27.315
would somebody from your group like

692
00:34:27.315 –> 00:34:30.635
to pop it in the chat bar so that we can all see, uh,

693
00:34:31.025 –> 00:34:35.035
what you were, you know, what, what, what tips you shared?

694
00:34:35.055 –> 00:34:38.035
We could certainly, uh, en enjoy learning from

695
00:34:38.035 –> 00:34:39.075
what other people are doing.

696
00:34:49.395 –> 00:34:50.535
See if anything comes in

697
00:35:07.285 –> 00:35:08.815
very quiet on the chat bar.

698
00:35:08.885 –> 00:35:13.015
Yeah, I’m hoping that’s not an indication that that,

699
00:35:13.045 –> 00:35:15.175
that there, there is no, uh,

700
00:35:15.395 –> 00:35:16.935
no good practice that you’re aware of.

701
00:35:18.805 –> 00:35:23.075
Here we go. Oh, we’re coming in now.

702
00:35:23.905 –> 00:35:28.355
Yeah, PI’s discussing early on what career aims are. Yeah.

703
00:35:29.015 –> 00:35:31.675
Com completely, uh, agree with that.

704
00:35:31.695 –> 00:35:34.555
And I think some of our PIs had had mentioned that as well,

705
00:35:34.555 –> 00:35:36.275
that they do it from, from the beginning,

706
00:35:36.275 –> 00:35:37.725
which is really, really encouraging.

707
00:35:38.305 –> 00:35:40.965
Um, and it’s something that we’ve been thinking about, how,

708
00:35:41.105 –> 00:35:45.285
how do we encourage more PIs, if not all PIs, to,

709
00:35:45.385 –> 00:35:47.805
to be doing that rather than only having those kind

710
00:35:47.805 –> 00:35:49.405
of discussions when, when the end

711
00:35:49.405 –> 00:35:50.845
of the contract is looming.

712
00:35:51.265 –> 00:35:54.525
Um, so yeah, absolutely. Great idea.

713
00:35:54.665 –> 00:35:57.725
Was there anything else that, that people brought up?

714
00:36:03.335 –> 00:36:06.885
Let’s see. Yeah, nothing Engineering Research Futures

715
00:36:06.885 –> 00:36:07.965
promotes the training available.

716
00:36:08.315 –> 00:36:11.405
Okay. So you’ve got a, a, a dedicated kind of platform or,

717
00:36:11.465 –> 00:36:13.965
or, um, system for promoting that.

718
00:36:14.035 –> 00:36:15.845
That sounds like a great idea

719
00:36:15.905 –> 00:36:18.125
and gets around that struggle of

720
00:36:18.125 –> 00:36:19.485
where does the information go?

721
00:36:19.505 –> 00:36:20.645
And we, we put it out there

722
00:36:20.645 –> 00:36:23.685
and people don’t know structured teaching qualification

723
00:36:23.845 –> 00:36:25.805
postdocs can achieve within those 10 days.

724
00:36:26.595 –> 00:36:30.365
Yeah, yeah. And that, that the idea of teaching, you know,

725
00:36:30.365 –> 00:36:32.525
one, one of the things that we found,

726
00:36:32.745 –> 00:36:34.325
and we, we knew anecdotally

727
00:36:34.325 –> 00:36:36.725
and we got some responses on was this idea that, of course

728
00:36:37.345 –> 00:36:39.885
for many postdocs, what they want to do in terms

729
00:36:39.885 –> 00:36:42.325
of their career development is, is prepare themselves

730
00:36:42.325 –> 00:36:43.325
for an academic pathway.

731
00:36:43.625 –> 00:36:45.405
We, we are not at all suggesting that

732
00:36:45.405 –> 00:36:46.565
that shouldn’t be the case.

733
00:36:47.265 –> 00:36:50.565
Um, but for teaching comes up in different ways.

734
00:36:50.785 –> 00:36:53.205
We, we know that in there few

735
00:36:53.925 –> 00:36:56.405
postdocs have expressed in Sheffield who’ve said

736
00:36:56.405 –> 00:36:58.365
that they’ve been kind of given a teaching load

737
00:36:58.385 –> 00:37:00.125
and told that is their career development,

738
00:37:00.125 –> 00:37:02.405
which we think is not quite the spirit of,

739
00:37:02.785 –> 00:37:05.525
of the Concord Act, even though it might be constrained

740
00:37:05.525 –> 00:37:06.965
as a form of career development activity.

741
00:37:07.225 –> 00:37:10.005
So how do we encourage any form of activity,

742
00:37:10.065 –> 00:37:11.885
but make it genuinely something that

743
00:37:12.405 –> 00:37:15.205
postdocs themselves are choosing rather than something

744
00:37:15.205 –> 00:37:18.125
that’s being given to them and told, uh, that’s training

745
00:37:19.415 –> 00:37:21.125
discussion sooner rather than later.

746
00:37:21.235 –> 00:37:22.365
What is training? Yeah.

747
00:37:23.295 –> 00:37:24.725
Again, yeah, really good point there

748
00:37:24.985 –> 00:37:27.805
and something that we’re, we are trying to find a solution

749
00:37:27.805 –> 00:37:31.885
to in terms of creating some kind of a guide, uh, that,

750
00:37:31.885 –> 00:37:35.245
that specifies the types of things people might think of

751
00:37:35.265 –> 00:37:38.165
as training, but, but leaving in an element of flexibility

752
00:37:38.165 –> 00:37:41.125
because the concordant suggests that this should be up

753
00:37:41.125 –> 00:37:44.045
to the, the, the postdoc to decide what training they need

754
00:37:44.105 –> 00:37:48.485
for the, the career future that they envisage the importance

755
00:37:48.565 –> 00:37:50.045
of encouraging, filling in career plans.

756
00:37:50.625 –> 00:37:53.805
Um, uh, yeah, so, and, and,

757
00:37:53.805 –> 00:37:55.845
and that yeah, leads onto another point there.

758
00:37:56.245 –> 00:37:57.685
I, I think filling in career plans,

759
00:37:57.705 –> 00:38:00.205
but also having some way of logging, uh,

760
00:38:00.205 –> 00:38:02.405
which is another challenge that we have, you know, and,

761
00:38:02.405 –> 00:38:06.565
and something that’s on our, um, research culture strategy,

762
00:38:06.845 –> 00:38:09.685
I believe to work out well how, how do we know actually,

763
00:38:09.845 –> 00:38:11.365
’cause we’ve got lots of anecdotal evidence

764
00:38:11.365 –> 00:38:12.765
and we’ve got survey responses,

765
00:38:12.765 –> 00:38:15.605
but how could we actually know what kind

766
00:38:15.605 –> 00:38:17.445
of career development and what, what amount

767
00:38:17.445 –> 00:38:18.925
of career development people are doing?

768
00:38:19.385 –> 00:38:23.325
Can we track that in some useful way, which helps both PIs

769
00:38:23.705 –> 00:38:25.925
and postdocs to see what’s going on and,

770
00:38:25.925 –> 00:38:28.365
and where there might be room for for expansion.

771
00:38:29.375 –> 00:38:31.205
Thank you all very much for sharing those.

772
00:38:31.625 –> 00:38:35.445
I’m not gonna ask you to share your individual, um,

773
00:38:35.685 –> 00:38:38.925
thoughts about what your institution could take away

774
00:38:38.925 –> 00:38:41.405
and think about based on, on some of the things

775
00:38:41.405 –> 00:38:42.965
that you’ve heard from our experience

776
00:38:42.965 –> 00:38:44.165
here in Sheffield today.

777
00:38:45.025 –> 00:38:49.565
Um, but I’m gonna go to to, to just give you a kind of a,

778
00:38:49.965 –> 00:38:51.925
a very brief overview of some of the work

779
00:38:51.925 –> 00:38:54.245
that we are doing here at the University of Sheffield.

780
00:38:54.345 –> 00:38:58.085
So kind of block these, uh, we know that that

781
00:38:58.595 –> 00:39:01.645
knowledge is a challenge, obviously brought up by,

782
00:39:01.745 –> 00:39:05.005
by both PIs and, uh, postdocs themselves.

783
00:39:05.425 –> 00:39:06.685
We don’t know what’s out there.

784
00:39:06.865 –> 00:39:09.045
It isn’t clear when we do know that it’s out there,

785
00:39:09.045 –> 00:39:10.045
whether we’re eligible.

786
00:39:10.785 –> 00:39:14.245
Uh, we, we need a lot more information about this.

787
00:39:14.665 –> 00:39:18.685
And also, despite what feels like pushing this forever,

788
00:39:19.425 –> 00:39:22.685
we still have, uh, quite a chunk of the postdoc cohort

789
00:39:22.945 –> 00:39:23.965
and PI cohort

790
00:39:24.425 –> 00:39:27.045
who don’t know about the research development concord

791
00:39:27.385 –> 00:39:31.645
and don’t really know that there are these allocated 10 days

792
00:39:31.665 –> 00:39:34.285
of professional development time, whether one chooses

793
00:39:34.285 –> 00:39:35.805
to take them or it’s another conversation,

794
00:39:35.865 –> 00:39:39.645
but just knowing that actually there is an expectation from

795
00:39:39.645 –> 00:39:41.885
the university that, uh,

796
00:39:42.115 –> 00:39:44.925
postdoc should be taking career development time.

797
00:39:45.505 –> 00:39:49.965
Um, so, so that basic awareness is something that we need

798
00:39:49.965 –> 00:39:51.005
to keep pushing and,

799
00:39:51.025 –> 00:39:54.405
and we’re trying to figure out what the most effective ways

800
00:39:54.465 –> 00:39:57.965
of, of doing that are, um, in order

801
00:39:57.965 –> 00:40:00.885
to get those messages across to, to both groups so

802
00:40:00.885 –> 00:40:03.845
that people can, can start to take that into account

803
00:40:03.905 –> 00:40:04.925
and plan around it.

804
00:40:05.475 –> 00:40:07.845
Then as, as we’ve had in this discussion there,

805
00:40:07.845 –> 00:40:10.485
clarity about what actually counts as career development,

806
00:40:11.145 –> 00:40:13.845
um, and perhaps we, we might add onto that,

807
00:40:13.845 –> 00:40:15.845
working out some way of, of logging it,

808
00:40:16.125 –> 00:40:17.245
although that seems to be a,

809
00:40:17.365 –> 00:40:18.725
a slightly further down the line

810
00:40:18.725 –> 00:40:21.605
that at least having some clarity for us here, at least

811
00:40:21.605 –> 00:40:23.045
that clarity being the first step.

812
00:40:23.745 –> 00:40:26.725
Um, and then also we’ve been asked to,

813
00:40:26.825 –> 00:40:29.325
to create case studies to inspire

814
00:40:29.425 –> 00:40:30.965
or encourage others to do it and,

815
00:40:30.985 –> 00:40:32.045
and give a sense of, well,

816
00:40:32.065 –> 00:40:33.885
how did people organize those things?

817
00:40:34.425 –> 00:40:37.765
So, uh, I’m currently, um, I’ve got somebody working

818
00:40:37.825 –> 00:40:41.925
for me having a look at that, uh, project to, to try

819
00:40:41.925 –> 00:40:44.005
to get some material together so that there’s a,

820
00:40:44.105 –> 00:40:48.325
an update UpToDate set of, uh, resources

821
00:40:48.325 –> 00:40:50.525
that will help people to see, okay, well, yeah, actually

822
00:40:50.525 –> 00:40:52.405
that person did it this way, this is

823
00:40:52.405 –> 00:40:54.805
how they got some career development activity going.

824
00:40:55.345 –> 00:40:57.445
Um, which again, might encourage people.

825
00:40:58.495 –> 00:41:03.035
Um, then really key, I think to many things

826
00:41:03.625 –> 00:41:06.915
here is trying to ensure that, uh,

827
00:41:07.225 –> 00:41:11.355
funders make explicit their expectations of

828
00:41:11.455 –> 00:41:14.555
and support for postdoc career development activity.

829
00:41:14.975 –> 00:41:17.115
We know that a number of funders are signed up

830
00:41:17.115 –> 00:41:20.435
to the Concord Act, which states this, you know, kind of

831
00:41:21.225 –> 00:41:23.835
need for, for postdocs to take time,

832
00:41:24.215 –> 00:41:26.795
but where contracts, funding contracts

833
00:41:26.815 –> 00:41:29.115
for projects don’t mention this.

834
00:41:29.615 –> 00:41:31.875
Uh, you know, PIs are coming back

835
00:41:31.875 –> 00:41:34.165
and saying, well, I can’t, I’d love to, but I can’t

836
00:41:34.165 –> 00:41:38.805
because all of the time is contracted for, you know, for,

837
00:41:38.905 –> 00:41:41.245
for those research specific activities,

838
00:41:41.465 –> 00:41:42.525
not for career development.

839
00:41:42.585 –> 00:41:44.565
So how can we work with funders?

840
00:41:44.565 –> 00:41:46.405
And that’s something we’re trying to do particularly

841
00:41:46.405 –> 00:41:50.005
through the R 14 group and, uh, and eight work.

842
00:41:50.065 –> 00:41:53.045
You know, how can we lobby to get funders

843
00:41:53.105 –> 00:41:58.065
to make sure they’re being explicit about that, um, for,

844
00:41:58.165 –> 00:42:02.705
for, for postdoc kind of career development to really, uh,

845
00:42:03.055 –> 00:42:04.705
take, take root.

846
00:42:05.365 –> 00:42:06.425
And then how do we,

847
00:42:07.085 –> 00:42:09.065
I’m not sure incentivize is quite the right word here,

848
00:42:09.065 –> 00:42:13.505
but how do we encourage PIs themselves to, to make sure

849
00:42:13.505 –> 00:42:15.345
that their postdocs are doing this?

850
00:42:15.565 –> 00:42:19.785
You know, what mechanisms exist to us here in terms of, um,

851
00:42:20.015 –> 00:42:21.265
promotional framework

852
00:42:21.365 –> 00:42:25.305
or our academic careers path, career pathway framework, um,

853
00:42:25.965 –> 00:42:29.705
or other such incentives, recognition to ensure

854
00:42:29.705 –> 00:42:31.985
that those PIs who are, you know,

855
00:42:31.985 –> 00:42:33.585
doing really great practice here

856
00:42:33.585 –> 00:42:36.825
and being incredibly supportive of their postdocs, you know,

857
00:42:36.855 –> 00:42:38.865
feel that that is actually being recognized

858
00:42:38.865 –> 00:42:41.145
and could stand as, again, good practice to,

859
00:42:41.525 –> 00:42:42.545
to encourage others.

860
00:42:42.805 –> 00:42:46.105
And, you know, we, we, you could see from this PI network,

861
00:42:46.285 –> 00:42:48.305
the Prosper PI network, the encouragement

862
00:42:48.305 –> 00:42:51.545
that other PIs can get from, from hearing about

863
00:42:51.645 –> 00:42:54.065
how things have been done in other institutions.

864
00:42:54.645 –> 00:42:58.905
Um, you know, so we, we really need to kind of make sure

865
00:42:58.905 –> 00:43:01.545
that PIs who who are, you know,

866
00:43:01.545 –> 00:43:03.745
doing this great practice are being recognized

867
00:43:03.745 –> 00:43:08.305
and those who aren’t, are being encouraged in supportive

868
00:43:08.335 –> 00:43:10.665
ways rather than kind of top down.

869
00:43:10.805 –> 00:43:13.305
You will do this types of ways to,

870
00:43:13.325 –> 00:43:14.385
to really make this happen

871
00:43:14.385 –> 00:43:16.825
because they are such an important influence

872
00:43:17.405 –> 00:43:19.945
in our post-doc career development as, as we all know.

873
00:43:21.555 –> 00:43:24.775
So that’s pretty much what I had to say.

874
00:43:24.995 –> 00:43:29.455
Uh, I wanted to leave you with a thought here, um, about

875
00:43:30.605 –> 00:43:33.295
kind of building on what you may have been discussing in

876
00:43:33.295 –> 00:43:35.815
your breakout groups, which those barriers,

877
00:43:36.195 –> 00:43:38.455
I’m sure there’ll be several which have resonated with,

878
00:43:38.525 –> 00:43:39.655
with, with many of you,

879
00:43:39.675 –> 00:43:41.855
but is the one that you can identify that

880
00:43:42.575 –> 00:43:44.975
actually could be a really good target

881
00:43:45.315 –> 00:43:46.815
for some kind of action.

882
00:43:47.515 –> 00:43:49.975
Um, and, and what is it that you think you

883
00:43:49.975 –> 00:43:54.815
or your institution might be able to do to start dismantling

884
00:43:54.815 –> 00:43:57.695
that barrier and to, to, to start encouraging

885
00:43:58.285 –> 00:44:01.175
more postdoc uptake of career development activity,

886
00:44:01.535 –> 00:44:05.815
particularly with a focus as, as we’ve had here on, uh,

887
00:44:05.825 –> 00:44:08.095
engagement with non-academic partners.

888
00:44:08.375 –> 00:44:11.255
Although any career development activity is,

889
00:44:11.315 –> 00:44:14.015
is good career development activity in, in my view.

890
00:44:15.835 –> 00:44:17.615
So I’m going to leave you with those thoughts.

891
00:44:17.995 –> 00:44:19.615
Um, we have a few minutes left.

892
00:44:19.875 –> 00:44:23.215
I’m at the end of my, uh, of my talk

893
00:44:23.875 –> 00:44:26.735
and I’d be very happy if anybody has any questions to,

894
00:44:26.835 –> 00:44:29.175
to try to answer them to the best of my knowledge.

895
00:44:33.455 –> 00:44:35.315
Thanks, Rebecca. I’m just gonna jump in

896
00:44:35.315 –> 00:44:38.275
before any questions to say that this session will be

897
00:44:38.915 –> 00:44:40.795
uploaded to Prosper portal.

898
00:44:41.415 –> 00:44:44.435
Um, we will send out the link, uh, with the event.

899
00:44:45.295 –> 00:44:47.515
Um, and we’d also just like to, um,

900
00:44:47.535 –> 00:44:48.995
launch a quick poll as well.

901
00:44:49.695 –> 00:44:52.675
Um, if you bear with me one second, I’ll do that.

902
00:44:53.335 –> 00:44:55.315
Um, but yeah, any questions for Rebecca?

903
00:45:10.725 –> 00:45:12.235
Thank I can see your hand up.

904
00:45:13.335 –> 00:45:15.075
Hi. Yeah, uh, sorry, I just thought, oh, I,

905
00:45:15.195 –> 00:45:16.315
I jump in cheekily.

906
00:45:16.575 –> 00:45:18.955
Um, so, um, thank you so much Rebecca, uh,

907
00:45:19.055 –> 00:45:20.915
for your fascinating talk.

908
00:45:21.175 –> 00:45:25.035
Um, I just wanted to ask if you noticed any trends in the,

909
00:45:25.495 –> 00:45:28.755
um, PI responses that you received in terms of their level

910
00:45:28.775 –> 00:45:33.355
of experience or seniority as a, as a PI in the support

911
00:45:33.505 –> 00:45:35.995
that they were willing were they were willing to give

912
00:45:35.995 –> 00:45:37.555
or gave to their postdocs?

913
00:45:39.355 –> 00:45:41.315
A good, good question in terms of raw numbers

914
00:45:41.375 –> 00:45:43.395
and we, we have, we have graphs and slides,

915
00:45:43.415 –> 00:45:44.915
but I couldn’t fit everything in.

916
00:45:45.415 –> 00:45:49.355
Yes, it does seem that the more experience very crudely put,

917
00:45:49.355 –> 00:45:52.475
the more experienced postdocs are more comfortable in

918
00:45:52.715 –> 00:45:54.755
allowing people to undertake, uh,

919
00:45:54.815 –> 00:45:56.315
career development activity and,

920
00:45:56.335 –> 00:45:58.835
and being, you know, openly supportive of that

921
00:45:58.835 –> 00:46:00.315
and encouraging those conversations.

922
00:46:00.495 –> 00:46:02.835
That’s obviously a very crude kind of thing

923
00:46:02.835 –> 00:46:05.275
and there are variations even within those groups.

924
00:46:05.455 –> 00:46:07.315
But, but crudely speaking, yes.

925
00:46:07.895 –> 00:46:10.355
Um, and in terms of being informed

926
00:46:10.375 –> 00:46:12.715
and understanding about, you know, the kind

927
00:46:12.715 –> 00:46:15.715
of the various mechanisms, there’s obviously an advantage

928
00:46:16.135 –> 00:46:18.915
or, or, or increase in that awareness as people are

929
00:46:19.495 –> 00:46:21.035
in the institution for longer.

930
00:46:21.555 –> 00:46:24.795
Although some people’s, some responses were indicative

931
00:46:24.795 –> 00:46:27.155
that people had actually brought awareness at least

932
00:46:27.155 –> 00:46:30.475
of the concordant with them from other institutions rather

933
00:46:30.475 –> 00:46:33.715
than necessarily gained it, uh, here in Sheffield.

934
00:46:34.405 –> 00:46:37.435
Great, thank you so much. You are welcome. Fi

935
00:46:39.385 –> 00:46:41.585
I have one more question, Rebecca from Ola.

936
00:46:48.405 –> 00:46:50.255
Yeah, Ola is, is, is this

937
00:46:50.295 –> 00:46:53.815
A, i I couldn’t import my microphone on.

938
00:46:53.965 –> 00:46:57.895
Okay. Uh, so my question is about, so you can, I,

939
00:46:58.035 –> 00:47:00.135
I’m not bas in UK now, but uh,

940
00:47:00.355 –> 00:47:02.495
but I was basing there, so did,

941
00:47:02.555 –> 00:47:06.295
you spoke about the definition of how count, what counts.

942
00:47:06.635 –> 00:47:08.735
So we don’t have this of the eight days

943
00:47:08.735 –> 00:47:10.095
that you have in the concordant

944
00:47:10.275 –> 00:47:12.535
and would be very difficult to implement that thing here.

945
00:47:12.635 –> 00:47:17.615
But, um, what is for you, so what count

946
00:47:17.995 –> 00:47:21.005
as, uh, researcher development days?

947
00:47:21.625 –> 00:47:25.125
So what is affected, uh, in general

948
00:47:25.385 –> 00:47:28.405
and is affected by the PIs? Uh, so

949
00:47:28.625 –> 00:47:30.965
It, it’s, it’s a really good question and it’s a challenge

950
00:47:30.985 –> 00:47:33.725
and something that we need to clarify further

951
00:47:33.725 –> 00:47:38.245
because as I kind of mentioned, some PIs seem to, uh,

952
00:47:38.455 –> 00:47:42.245
count any activity, any training as career development,

953
00:47:42.245 –> 00:47:44.085
and we wouldn’t necessarily put that

954
00:47:44.085 –> 00:47:45.725
as such if it’s mandatory training.

955
00:47:46.505 –> 00:47:51.125
Um, some PIs, uh, felt that any teaching activity counted

956
00:47:51.225 –> 00:47:52.285
as career development, whether

957
00:47:52.285 –> 00:47:54.485
or not that was something the postdoc had chosen

958
00:47:55.025 –> 00:47:56.605
for themselves or whether it had

959
00:47:56.605 –> 00:47:57.725
simply been assigned to them.

960
00:47:57.865 –> 00:48:00.885
So it is a piece of work that’s kind of ongoing thinking,

961
00:48:00.885 –> 00:48:03.925
well, how can we create something that gives flexibility,

962
00:48:04.785 –> 00:48:06.565
uh, but some kind of clarity

963
00:48:06.565 –> 00:48:09.245
because we did have PI responses saying, look what you,

964
00:48:09.245 –> 00:48:11.005
what, what, we don’t know what this is, so

965
00:48:11.005 –> 00:48:12.565
how can we know whether people are doing it

966
00:48:12.745 –> 00:48:16.005
or encourage it when it, it’s such a broad statement.

967
00:48:16.105 –> 00:48:17.765
So I think it’s a really good point.

968
00:48:17.825 –> 00:48:20.725
It it’s, there isn’t at the moment a crystal answer for us.

969
00:48:20.785 –> 00:48:22.125
We, it’s something that that,

970
00:48:22.275 –> 00:48:24.845
that we are working on developing, trying

971
00:48:24.885 –> 00:48:25.925
to understand what that is.

972
00:48:26.225 –> 00:48:29.085
The focus of this particular study, uh,

973
00:48:29.465 –> 00:48:33.085
was career development engagement with activities such

974
00:48:33.085 –> 00:48:35.765
as knowledge exchange or consultancy or secondment,

975
00:48:36.065 –> 00:48:38.885
but that’s obviously a kind of a subset anyway of everything

976
00:48:38.885 –> 00:48:42.005
that could be counted as career development activity.

977
00:48:44.075 –> 00:48:46.685
Because for us, for example, some PIs count

978
00:48:47.585 –> 00:48:51.845
if the postdoc is applying for a fellowship in another place

979
00:48:51.985 –> 00:48:55.965
for the next position and, and they need this extra time.

980
00:48:56.665 –> 00:48:58.485
So this is, so that counts more than eight days

981
00:48:58.505 –> 00:49:00.325
of this is more than eight days.

982
00:49:00.385 –> 00:49:04.765
And say, I’m giving you the, the timing is kind of in,

983
00:49:05.065 –> 00:49:06.165
in your duties, right?

984
00:49:06.385 –> 00:49:08.525
And to, and, and to apply for funding

985
00:49:09.065 –> 00:49:11.285
and, uh, yeah, it’s kind of, you are writing a project,

986
00:49:11.305 –> 00:49:13.405
you are learning, you are developing your career.

987
00:49:13.905 –> 00:49:15.725
So this count as career development.

988
00:49:15.835 –> 00:49:17.925
Yeah. And, and if, if, if that, you know, I think that

989
00:49:18.515 –> 00:49:20.245
some of the owners or some of the,

990
00:49:20.345 –> 00:49:23.245
the emphasis I think on in the research development Concord

991
00:49:23.245 –> 00:49:25.845
Act itself is that this should be something that the, is

992
00:49:25.845 –> 00:49:27.445
what the, the, um,

993
00:49:28.035 –> 00:49:30.805
postdoc themselves understands as career development.

994
00:49:30.805 –> 00:49:33.005
But obviously there is a process in negotiation

995
00:49:33.005 –> 00:49:35.125
and if you said, well, actually I’m gonna need extra time

996
00:49:35.125 –> 00:49:38.285
to fill in a fellowship application and I want 12 days to go

997
00:49:38.565 –> 00:49:41.645
and do some work, shadowing or placement

998
00:49:41.645 –> 00:49:43.805
or whatever can understand that

999
00:49:43.805 –> 00:49:45.205
for PIs, that’s really tricky.

1000
00:49:45.425 –> 00:49:48.005
So this is where we, we do need to kind

1001
00:49:48.005 –> 00:49:51.605
of be a bit clearer about what we as, as essential kind

1002
00:49:51.605 –> 00:49:53.365
of part of the university understand and,

1003
00:49:53.365 –> 00:49:57.325
and do that in negotiation with, uh, postdocs

1004
00:49:57.545 –> 00:50:00.045
and with the PIs who, who at the end of the day are,

1005
00:50:00.105 –> 00:50:02.965
are carrying the responsibility of completing their project.

1006
00:50:03.145 –> 00:50:04.805
And, and that’s such an important part.

1007
00:50:06.455 –> 00:50:06.925
Thank you.

1008
00:50:15.395 –> 00:50:19.505
Great. Thanks Rebecca. I think it looks like we’re done.

1009
00:50:21.145 –> 00:50:23.185
Brilliant. Well thank you very much for this opportunity

1010
00:50:23.245 –> 00:50:25.705
and thank you everybody for your questions and your comments

1011
00:50:26.205 –> 00:50:27.425
and for participating.

1012
00:50:28.045 –> 00:50:29.465
Thanks for the wonderful session.

1013
00:50:29.765 –> 00:50:33.545
So many great insight, I think there. So thanks so much.